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movement assessment

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51#
发表于 2013-4-8 12:43:24 | 只看该作者
Hints:

脑子中考虑一个弯, 要先想好

是GS, 还是SL.

是个香蕉弯, 还是半圆弯
52#
发表于 2013-4-8 12:51:35 | 只看该作者
chalpha 发表于 2013-4-8 13:19
这算不算?

当然这是练习,那人正常滑有这个趋势,racer应该不这样,浪费力气。 ...

总是不甚赞同大侠将racing和recreational skiing截然分开的讲法,if I may……

俄这种菜鸟的观点,当然不值一提。但我看包括HH在内,网上可以找到的各位滑雪教练们,也都会拿racer说事儿,讲解技术哇。可见在他们的观点里,两者还是一条主干到底,而非主干上分两枝。

这两天看HH的blog比较多,进入13年的,通篇在谈racer,拿着Marcel Hirscher的slalom说事儿,大谈后者的表现怎么符合他的体系啊。

抄个例子过来:

Marcel Hirscher uses all the Essentials of skiing, and he does them better than everyone else on the World Cup. The Essentials are, Tipping the boots, feet and legs, (especially the inside boot) Counter balancing the upper body, Counter-acting the torso and hips, Flexing one leg while lengthening the other, and using Fore/aft balance.



In this first clip from video we see his classic upper body counter balancing and counter acting.



In the second slide he increases counter balancing and counter acting to prepare for the flexing and releasing of the outside leg. His pressure and weight shifts to the little toe edge of the uphill  ski.



Notice how there is no extension of either leg.  He has shifted his weight to the up hill ski and has retracted the outside leg to prepare for transition. He holds his Counter acting while tipping his legs off the edges of the ski.


Marcel uses all the Essentials and he creates them more cleanly while holding them and using them with perfect timing. No other skier, tips the inside ski as far and keeps it as close to the outside ski as Hirscher. This is only one of his huge advantages he uses over the competition.



Here is an example of his inside ski tipped to a high degree, his inside leg flexed and the long outside leg. Again here you see his strong counter balance of the torso. His torso is vertical, legs and skis are at high angles. Many coaches think this is old school, I think it's an Essential every skier must have. He rarely  rotates his body when blocking, or steps his inside ski out of the turn. He keeps both skis and feet close and finishes by transferring to the little toe edge.

If you spread or step your inside ski, it takes much long to transition and you lose speed and pressure.



Notice the hands and poles are high and the pole bottoms are forward. Hirscher holds strong counteracting to keep the torso supporting his engaged tipping skis.

这个转帖好像也可以平息这个帖子里的很多争论,I hope……

滑雪俄是没什么发言权了,但以俄从事别的体育项目的一点有限的经验,可以做到更快更强,一定是因为技术动作更合理或更高级,是合乎逻辑的表述。反之,为了达到更快更强,反而要把技术水准降格,则好像没有这样的事吧。

轮休在家闲的腚痛,灌水而已。冒犯的话嫩莫怪。

点评

别自谦了,没大侠那几个强帖,俄不晓得HH是谁呢,高山仰止啊  发表于 2013-4-8 13:29
1.我不是大侠. 2. 我没有理论. 3. 我基本同意HH. 4. 我不同意HH对Pivoting的蔑视  发表于 2013-4-8 13:12
Marcel Hirscher的长项是否就是slalom?反之,为HH一再诟病那几位,或者更擅长sg和dh吧?只是想当然  发表于 2013-4-8 13:03
HH的这个体系是转弯最快的,所以适合slalom。gs如何不知道。到了sc和dh这样的速度赛,或者大侠那个理论更成立一些吧  发表于 2013-4-8 13:01
标杆的位置,实际上定义了CB的强度,也就定义了CA的强度  发表于 2013-4-8 12:57
CA来源于CB,强度也取决于CB的大小。如果条件允许,Racer一定会避免CB,因为影响速度。  发表于 2013-4-8 12:55
53#
发表于 2013-4-8 12:51:40 | 只看该作者
KuoiGuaBoarder 发表于 2013-4-8 13:14
嫩表咬文嚼字.

这里有一个定义,跟我的想法一致
http://www.epicski.com/t/56968/c ... aration#post_731393

也是很多不同意见,看来这是一个永远的争议
54#
发表于 2013-4-8 13:05:18 | 只看该作者
checkmoteur 发表于 2013-4-8 13:51
总是不甚赞同大侠将racing和recreational skiing截然分开的讲法,if I may……

俄这种菜鸟的观点,当然 ...

我还是比较支持用racer的技术学习滑雪,不同的是racer的意识最强速度和最短路线,这点在平常滑雪时要避免,不然就cheating了。

点评

你赤裸裸的爆漏了, 你的心奏是竞技的  发表于 2013-4-8 13:12
55#
发表于 2013-4-8 13:07:18 | 只看该作者
IntoTheWind 发表于 2013-4-8 13:51
这里有一个定义,跟我的想法一致
http://www.epicski.com/t/56968/counter-rotation-vs-upper-lower-body ...

Counter Rotation (CR): turning the skis by twisting the torso and legs in opposite directions. Newton's law of action and reaction applies!

Anticipation: a movement in preparation for turning . . .

Anticipation Release (AR): a turn initiation force used to impart rotary force to the skis, through the unwinding of anticipation
贴过来

Anticipation prepares the body by storing torque (potentially) to be used to initiate a turn. The torso and legs are brought into a twisted relationship. In anticipation the hips play an intermediary role. Realizing that both muscle masses that are predominantly responsible for the rotary movement of the body connect to the pelvis (quadriceps from the legs and back and abdominal muscles from the torso), we see that the hips are not likely to be totally associated with either the torso or the legs but will, depending on the degree of muscle tension generated by the twisting movement, assume an intermediary role. A skier can anticipate by twisting the torso toward the center of the upcoming turn or by turning the skis beneath the torso. The latter of which has been confusingly assigned the "skiing into counter" phenomenon. It's anticipation, thats all.

CR- Envision the body as two units: 1) head, arms, torso. 2) pelvis, legs, feet, skis. CR implies a movement of these two portions about the vertical body axis but in opposite directions. The simultaneous yet opposite movements of the torso and lower body generate torque.

Anticipation and CR look similar but mechanically the two movement concepts are totally different.


And one more . . . maybe the most important one-

Counter action (CA) is a separate mechanism from CR and AR. The hips and torso constitute the upper body and the legs are the lower body. CA applies no rotary force to the skis, in fact it (CA) negates/counteracts the unwanted torque from the tipping/turning movements of the legs. CA is applied prior to deflection and ideally (in early skill levels) following a torque neutral transition. CA can be viewed as rotary movement of the torso around the body's central/vertical axis- the spine. The torso turns to face outside the arc of the turn. Gait mechanics add important considerations regarding the axis of rotation. That is a different topic, for now.

点评

Thanks. I misunderstood CR / Anticipation  发表于 2013-4-8 13:16
56#
发表于 2013-4-8 13:10:41 | 只看该作者
KuoiGuaBoarder 发表于 2013-4-8 14:07
Counter Rotation (CR): turning the skis by twisting the torso and legs in opposite directions. New ...

偶简单的很, 还是一句话.

P I 上发条, P II专心立刃, 上劲的发条自动拧回中性, 开始准备下一个弯

点评

谢谢, 那我+一句, 最好的pivoting 实际上起到平衡上述扭力的作用, 用来保持雪板的平直前进  发表于 2013-4-8 13:25
Very well said.  发表于 2013-4-8 13:23
That's Anticipation Release (AR)  发表于 2013-4-8 13:22
57#
发表于 2013-4-8 13:16:09 | 只看该作者
这帖子越来越有意思了,谢谢歪楼的大侠们

点评

谢谢大侠参与, 愿大侠积分越升越高, 早日过上粪土万户候的生活  发表于 2013-4-8 13:23
58#
发表于 2013-4-8 13:16:23 | 只看该作者


上图是HH字典意义下的rotation,躯干髋部扭向arc内部,是错误的。



这个则是CA,躯干髋部扭向arc外部,在HH意义下是正确的作法。

我的印象是HH的这些讨论仅限于slalom,gs一点点。SuperG和downhill目前还没看到。我说HH的理论是过弯最快理论,更适用于slalom。

Alpine skiing的racing是分两大门类的。Slalom和Giant slalom是技巧赛,SuperG和Downhill是速度赛。这个在谈论racer的技术的时候,似乎也需要区分开。
59#
发表于 2013-4-8 13:32:36 | 只看该作者
firehwak2018 发表于 2013-4-8 14:16
这帖子越来越有意思了,谢谢歪楼的大侠们

俄是觉得吧,这也不算歪楼。hips的朝向,跟couter acting,在HH那里,很多时候都混为一谈,看HH的原话:

Counter balancing the upper body, Counter-acting the torso and hips

60#
发表于 2013-4-8 13:33:48 | 只看该作者
checkmoteur 发表于 2013-4-8 14:32
俄是觉得吧,这也不算歪楼。hips的朝向,跟couter acting,在HH那里,很多时候都混为一谈,看HH的原话:
...

咱再加把劲, 讨论一下square的问题吧?

点评

没人喜欢被砸就算了, 我马上去接娃了  发表于 2013-4-8 13:40
我不干, 我喜欢砸别人  发表于 2013-4-8 13:39
Eh...define me SQUARE first please...  发表于 2013-4-8 13:39
你先起个头,我们往上砸砖  发表于 2013-4-8 13:37
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