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标题: CSIA DEMO TEAM教练评论各国滑雪style [打印本页]

作者: checkmoteur 时间: 2013-4-26 13:40
标题: CSIA DEMO TEAM教练评论各国滑雪style
本帖最后由 checkmoteur 于 2013-4-26 15:03 编辑

这位教练的名字叫John Gillies，针对的是interski上的各国风格。简单听写，方便比对。实在听不清楚的一些词用删节号代替。英语听力好的大侠可以跟帖改错填空。

比较有意思是对加拿大自己的评论，看上去就两点：

1，对canadian team（技术？）的amteur特色的再三申明
2，强调CSIA技术风格，已从以往带给别人的刻板印象中改进

这些过往的刻板印象，包括两个方面：

1，过于注重形式，form，而不是function
2，较为后座的stance

其实还有第3个，就是John Gillies指出的，Psia的一个招牌性动作：up-unweighting，以及由此带来的pressure建立在arc后半部。非常有意思的是，俄看过Psia的人指证这是Csia的技术特点，且评价不高……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rtzwqDeSGg

so just what is contemporary skiing, technically skiing involves quite a lot last number of years, and because it's ruled by basically the limits of the human body, and by the technology we have under our feet, it ends up most of the top skiers ski pretty similarly, quite a wide stance for stability, lot of independent between the legs, and skiers maintain stronger stance through all the arc, early edging, pressure built above the fall-line, and released early, so the skier's flatting the turn below fall-line.

法国：

With the French, for example, we see them very active in the fore/aft plane, they're very loose, upper body's quite involved in balance, in term of getting over the skis earlier in the turn, and can be interpreted as being a little less disciplined, but on the other hand it's very very dynamic, very free, powerful skiers. they involve the knees a lot at the beginning of the turns, well before the body is stacked and placed the knees are already involved and active, can get an early grip against the snow.

奥地利：

the Austrians are obviously the first to be recommended with, strong alpine nation, a well developed system, their skiing is very sound mechanically, wide stable stance, they have obvious a re-centering at the beginning of the turns, so they're very strong over the outside ski, very early on the turn. quite disciplined in their upper body, almost...the point where it seems stiff sometime, somehow the mechanic's so getting in the way of the flow, it seems a little bit more preoccupied with form, a little bit less fluid. but once again, strong skiers...while research obviously basing on high-end skiing on the world cup model.

瑞士：

the top Swiss demonstrators certainly demonstrated a great amount of freedom in their skiing, little bit.. RI, perhaps a little wild with the upper body, but still very much driven by the lower body, so really not rotation, but certainly very very free, and once get passed individuals you see them moving inside of the turn was a great deal of commitment, and without being restricted in any way, and certainly something to aspire to... at anyone ski...

德国：

when we skied with the German demonstrators, they showed us once again very good skiing, probably a little less active in the fore/aft plane, bit more on the middle to slightly to the tail of the skis, but nice disciplined...the upper body, very active once again with the steering the lower body, and fine calipered skiing as well

意大利：

the Italians are always of course strong skiers, obviously influences by world cup model skiing, strong centering move early in the turn, so the early stand up to get centered over outside ski, very tall long outside leg for strength, quite a lot of discipline in their upper body, and very powerful skiers. on the other hand their  synchronized skiing certainly some point restricted the freedom of their skiing in favor of the formation so the skiing suffered a little bit as a result of that. but as individuals they were definitely great skiers and fun to watch.

美国：

the Americans demonstrate a good functional all-mountain approached ski technique, going  some ways quite similar to the Canadian approach, probably not quite as perform-oriented in the high-end, a little narrowed stance, then will be desirable for high performance skiing, and a tendency towards vertical movement, which takes some above the snow a little bit in the early part of the turn, so between turns then come up  a little bit, and make some little light, so the pressure then comes onto the ski after the fall-line in a lot of cases, but overall a nice demonstration I'd like to say a very functional technique for all-mountain skiing.

日本：

the Japanese take a different approach, starting a few years back we heard they were talking about the bi-axial turning, basically the body fall of the outside of the foot, you can see that in their skiing, to see them skiing with quite tight stance, they absorb between turns, almost you can have...where they allover absorb pressure between turns, and stretch the legs out of the side, the pressure actually comes onto the skis fairly late in the arc in a lot situations, and then they basically absorb it very quickly at the end. and the demonstrations the choreography were nice, but the skiing is soft voice in that higher performances...the break chords bit, but there's definitely some interesting things to be watched and looked at within the Japanese skiers.

加拿大：

so what is the Canadian technical approach fit into all of this? good question. I invite you to look at the footage eh individual skiers and judge for yourself. I think we stand up pretty well over all, we've moved ahead a lot with the technique of last number of years, we're much less focus on positions and mechanics and much more focused on outcomes and results against the snow, and we're skiing more loosely and more powerfully than we've ever skied, much more centered especially at the top of the arc than we have in the past, and we are letting ourselves going more freely, but less restricted. overall,you know, we can be proud about we have demonstrators that can ski right along side some of the best in the world, many of the demonstrators from other countries have come up through racing and world cup, even some of them and  then they become demonstrators for the national team. and we've taken another approach...put people in the system through ski's course, so we have here guys and girls that have gone through their one two three and four and here they are skiing as the rest of them, so our system works, and we can have a lot of faith in term of moving ahead and believing all we do, and we have nothing to be ashamed by...means in many ways I think technically we're exactly where we need to be.

作者: luvski 时间: 2013-4-26 13:48

回家再慢慢看。

作者: checkmoteur 时间: 2013-4-26 13:55
看来看去好像日韩更像瑞士的风格。不像奥地利啊。

作者: 雪坷垃 时间: 2013-4-26 14:14
厉害！超级佩服听写达人！

作者: KuoiGuaBoarder 时间: 2013-4-26 14:37
膜拜大侠，大侠万岁万岁万万岁！

作者: checkmoteur 时间: 2013-4-26 14:43

KuoiGuaBoarder 发表于 2013-4-26 15:37
膜拜大侠，大侠万岁万岁万万岁！

瓜教主还是别捧了，正经看看日本那段，什么soft voice、break chords，到底说的什么。俄被卡住很久啊。真听不出来丫叨叨的什么……

作者: checkmoteur 时间: 2013-4-26 15:08
epicski上一位Psia的老兄是这样批评（如果可以说是批评的话）Csia style的：

CSIA on the other hand does have a definite style and much more consistency to the way they ski. I'm not making any comment here about which way is better or worse then the other, only saying that I think CSIA puts forth a higher level of precision in terms of the exact moves they want their instructors to make. PSIA is a bit looser, saying that skill blending, etc. are the way to do it which provides for a wide variety of skier types and styles, but also gives up the ability to be as precise about what is expected...and resulting in skiers which all have their own look to them.

That being said, CSIA does have a distinctive look to them, which sets them apart from many other systems.

1 - The hips are generally found further back

2 - In order to remain center balanced, they bend forward at the waist

3 - They round out their back in this pose, which gives them the hunched look that has been mentioned in the past.

4 - Another characteristic of CSIA skiing is that they like to use very active extension as they approach the fall line and very active flexion starting at the fallline and continuing until they finish the turn. Someone recently posted a NW PSIA guy doing this same type of move, but it is not something I have generally observed commonly among PSIA teachers and demonstrators. Its not a sudden pop up move. Its rather a long slow extension towards the fall line and a long slow flexion from the fallline to the turn finish.

简单说：

1，太注重外在表现

2，重心后坐，需要前弓腰去弥补，造成一个驼峰背

3，在transition时pop-up，压雪板晚

第一第二条似乎被gilles同志的发言证实了。第三天gilles同志用来反过来指证是Psia的style。当然这位psia的老兄也指出，多数psia教练没有这个特点。

俄没看到太明显的什么驼峰背，pop-up是有的。重心似乎稍显后坐了一点，相比其他style。

作者: 雪坷垃 时间: 2013-4-26 15:20

checkmoteur 发表于 2013-4-26 16:08
epicski上一位Psia的老兄是这样批评（如果可以说是批评的话）Csia style的：

CSIA on the other hand does ...

我觉得这点上csia和psia是彼此彼此，属于50步笑百步。可能演示的人不同而风格也略有不同，这个视频里确实是米国人比加拿大的跳的更厉害点。但总体来说两者建好板压都到了弯的后半部分。

John Gillies解释为更偏all mountain的滑行风格，我觉得这个说法很好。

日本人利用伸缩长短腿来转换，这种方式本可以很早的建立板压，但不知为什么他们也搞的很晚。

欧洲的几个国家在这点上普遍做的更好。按照John Gillies的说法更有world cup风。

瑞士那个滑的十分松散，我看John Gillies简直没词儿了，只好一个劲的说：哦很free啊很loose啊。老实说看着很奇葩，我不喜欢。

作者: snowrider 时间: 2013-4-26 15:28
本帖最后由 snowrider 于 2014-6-15 18:26 编辑

..........

作者: KuoiGuaBoarder 时间: 2013-4-26 15:30

雪坷垃发表于 2013-4-26 16:20
我觉得这点上csia和psia是彼此彼此，属于50步笑百步。可能演示的人不同而风格也略有不同，这个视频里确实 ...

没考证过，我猜
world cup风是指那人是racer出身

作者: 雪坷垃 时间: 2013-4-26 15:31

KuoiGuaBoarder 发表于 2013-4-26 16:30
没考证过，我猜
world cup风是指那人是racer出身

racer出身简直太普遍了，那些人估计随便抓一个小时候都是练过几年racing的

作者: 雪坷垃 时间: 2013-4-26 15:49

racer的自由滑也都难看的可以，bode，GG，还有别的什么人的，都不咋地。还是HH好看。Csia的也好看。日韩的最好看，全地域性也最差

不是只有bode那种级别的才叫做racer出身啦，我觉得小时候练过几年竞技滑雪的，滑行的姿态就会不一样，当然往后可能又走上大众滑雪的路线发展出自己的风格。
如果将“小时候练过几年竞技滑雪”这个算作racer底子的话，那么很多在业余滑雪圈里自立门派的高手，可以说都有这样的基础。包括你所说的HH。

毕竟对于欧美人来说竞技滑雪是不需要什么门槛的，只要父母愿意掏钱、小孩愿意吃苦，谁都可以送去学竞技滑雪，竞技滑雪和休闲滑雪只是追求的目的不同，并非对参与者的身体素质有神马特别的要求，当然，能学到什么高度就两说了。

作者: chalpha 时间: 2013-4-26 17:37
[youtube]eL3Ebf_vz3M[/youtube]

STANCE偏后我完全同意，刚滑雪那年看到CSIA的视频就给带来很大的困惑比如3分25秒的镜头。

作者: devilsponge 时间: 2013-4-26 17:44

checkmoteur racer的自由滑也都难看的可以，bode，GG，还有别的什么人的，都不咋地。还是HH好看。Csia的也好看。日韩的最好看，全地域性也最差发表于 1 小时前

这么说吧，如果好看也算比赛标准的话， Bode照样能整出个又快又好看的拿名次。反之，这些个业余流派的高端选手，HH也好， CSIA，日韩也好，估计资格赛都困难。人Bode实在是没这个必要整这些个事儿。

作者: devilsponge 时间: 2013-4-26 18:05

雪坷垃发表于 2013-4-26 16:20
我觉得这点上csia和psia是彼此彼此，属于50步笑百步。可能演示的人不同而风格也略有不同，这个视频里确实 ...

我可能比你要极端，我举得这些个业余组织都是50， 100步，市场越来越小，生存需要。 RACE环境相对来说好很多，毕竟家长们都是自投罗网，要出成绩，训练时间就必须要有保证，成绩压倒一切，不需要这些东西翻来覆去抓人眼球。

作者: lupo 时间: 2013-11-1 09:58
本帖最后由 lupo 于 2013-11-1 17:26 编辑

再看这个视频，听着John熟悉的声音，很有感触！

美国demo的这个人肯定不是JB，JB才是有招牌式的up-unweighting。

作者: bullpower 时间: 2013-11-1 10:45
本帖最后由 bullpower 于 2013-11-1 12:07 编辑

so freaking technical, i'll just pass.

I think demo team skiing is something we watch and WOW,
not something we watch and learn

now that function determines form, so form is no longer the primary,
sit back when you need to, it's not wrong anymore

作者: bullpower 时间: 2013-11-1 12:10
seriously, there's nothing wrong that at any certain point of time you are not centered.
that's why it's "centered and mobile stance", as long as you can re-adjust your stance to be centered
there's nothing wrong with that point of time when you are not.

If you move to the next frame, I'm pretty the demo team skier is centered again.

作者: KuoiGuaBoarder 时间: 2013-11-1 19:56

bullpower 发表于 2013-11-1 13:10
seriously, there's nothing wrong that at any certain point of time you are not centered.
that's why ...

牛哥, 我觉得你说的不对劲

作者: KuoiGuaBoarder 时间: 2013-11-1 20:10

KuoiGuaBoarder 发表于 2013-11-1 20:56
牛哥, 我觉得你说的不对劲

你比如说13楼那个截图, 你可以说他后坐了, 对吧.

但是人家身体上carry 了望上&前的 momentum, 这个没错吧.

你要怕陡身体僵住了, 或者carry了望下的 momentum, 嘿嘿, 你还敢说不后坐

作者: bullpower 时间: 2013-11-1 23:21
那3分30秒31秒还A腿了呢

不能FRAME BY FRAME，DEMO TEAM也不是机器人，但比机器人MOBILE很多。
机器人可能永远不A腿，但不可能MOBILE，当然，科技发展到几百年后，不一定。

作者: snowrider 时间: 2013-11-1 23:30
本帖最后由 snowrider 于 2014-6-15 17:25 编辑

..........

作者: bullpower 时间: 2013-11-1 23:31

snowrider 发表于 2013-11-1 23:30
我看法是那個截圖顯示出來的不是後坐而是另一個真正的問題 - 他的 ankles 沒有 flex !! 他的 flex 大部 ...

他在演示BASIC PARALLEL。。。。。。如果滑出PERFORMANCE，那就不是BASIC PARALLEL了。。。。

作者: snowrider 时间: 2013-11-2 08:45
本帖最后由 snowrider 于 2014-6-15 17:25 编辑

..........

作者: snowrider 时间: 2013-11-2 08:56
本帖最后由 snowrider 于 2014-6-15 17:25 编辑

..........

作者: firehwak2018 时间: 2013-11-2 11:21

chalpha 发表于 2013-4-26 18:37
STANCE偏后我完全同意，刚滑雪那年看到CSIA的视频就给带来很大的困惑比如3分25秒的镜头。

这一瞬间肩膀在膝盖后面，确实是落后了

作者: bullpower 时间: 2013-11-2 15:13
还是反对FRAME BY FRAME挑错。

作者: firehwak2018 时间: 2013-11-2 15:22

bullpower 发表于 2013-11-2 16:13
还是反对FRAME BY FRAME挑错。

同反对。单帧图片说明不了任何问题。因为看到单帧图片之后脑子里浮现的连贯动作纯属想象

作者: norman 时间: 2013-11-4 04:14
這張圖片位置沒有問題，會造成這個位置看起來像後坐的原因是因為會了豚跳的原因。

第一眼看到時就覺得，真的懂得及會做豚跳就自然知道為什麼會這樣了，雖然我還沒有拍滑雪的豚跳動作，但這是依據我測試那長板馬路滑雪板得到的感想，所以再看他的影片，就看到他做了好幾段的豚跳，那應該八九不離十了。

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